Dualism, Non-Duality and Monism


LINK to “Union of Opposites”

LINK to “Number and Archetype”

LINK to “The One and The Many”

LINK to “Fractals and Chaos”

Reality Declarations:  People usually choose to filter their reality through a personal focus on importance of either physicality or spirituality.

some of this can be rewritten …

Dualism is Monism, Monism is Dualism

When you think you are a monist, you are a dualist.  When you think you are a dualist, you are a monist.

If you want to include two, and say you are a dualist, you are expressing the will of comprehensiveness and completion.  You are therefore a monist.

If you want to say all is one substance, you are wanting to have faith in the combination of the two.  You are therefore a dualist.

The one is the two, the two is the one.  This was always true.  It was true before we started talking about it.  Before we divided the one, there was two.  Before we combined the two, there was the one.

I’m speaking generally and metaphysically here.  But if you want to choose physical specifics, these statements will still apply just fine.

There is no conflict.  Some people are focusing more on one side.  Other people are focusing more on the other.  Both factions are studying quietly in their own time.  They create conflicts with each other.  Sometimes one side is right, sometimes the other is right.  They can both be right.  They don’t need to fight.  It’s fun sometimes, but not usually.  We debate to learn and to teach.  There’s no purpose in defeating anyone unless their ideas are damaging other people somehow, politically or socially.  It’s just ontological/epistemic/cosmic favoritism, impatience, and dominionism.

The whole reality was always there before we conceived of it in a separatist style.  In the end all will be known, and we will all benefit from its intrinsic completeness.

Decide to strive for the full understanding.  Conversation can help, meditation is faster.  Reading and writing are fun and productive.  On the other hand, everybody can shut up and go to hell.

Non-duality can be recognition or rejection of both sides.  Both ways lead to perception of the unitary reality, because reality was there before you started thinking about it.  Recognition of the two sides of reality show them to be both distinct and indistinguishable, and related and beyond each other, independent and conditionally related.

The miracle is that knowledge is possible at all, with such a confusing universe.

Depending on our choice in meaning, intent, and focus, we will reach reality in a different way.

Every possible type of knowledge is a union of opposites in practice, and human history is going all the way to the truth.

Dualism is division and subtraction.  This can be useful for specific analysis, isolated consideration.  It isn’t the full picture, but that was already apparent in your chosen intent to focus on a separated view temporarily.  It’s just a consequence of your style of observation.

Some people lose hope of finding full clarity.  Impatience and arrogance in argumentation can cause the loss of that hope.  Ignorance is inevitable when you are attached to words which were invented with one-sided reality in mind.  Knowledge is inevitable when the mind is open to all sides.

An interconnected, all-pervasive, interpenetrating experience of reality beyond previous established conceptuality.  Everything has the power to effect everything else.

Clarification and harmony is the goal of language.  Arguments are not always going to work out.  They will usually reveal the most aggressive one to be the most ignorant.  Truth is beyond always appearances and frozen polarized words.  On the level of subtlety it is found and developed.  Whether you begin with material logic, or with spiritual logic, you will end by moving into the holistic unitary reality.

The complete picture is necessary for science to be philosophically satisfying.  And for philosophy to be accurately detailed with the most recently devised scientific information.  We are always striving for the complete picture.  Knowledge is only ever temporarily divided as the will is comprehensive and conscientious.  Complete knowledge is not only possible, but inevitable.

Deepak Chopra and Michael Shermer Exchanges – from “Ultimate Reality” Discussion at … University

“Just a Brain …”   EMBED VIDEO CLIPS

Deepak Chopra and Sam Harris Exchanges – from “Future of God” Discussion at …

Non-dual interactive duality – One reality selectively focused as Two


–MAKE MY OWN CUT– of this section of Light of Nature

embed here with transcription

Because all institutions attain a certain momentum toward the preservation of their own vested interest. And science, and the handmaiden of science which is modern technocratic government, has created a number of cultural institutions with an extreme friction against our intuition of the natural life and knowledge of man with its potential for completion and transcendence.

What they don’t tell you is, that at the same time that you build this definition of the citizen, you also build the institutions which subvert the the citizen.  So the citizen is not free to act out and express the wishes of the citizen.  The citizen is a consumer of ideological models that are sold to the citizen through agencies of mass propaganda.  So there’s this peculiar playing off of one against the other; and this resulting painful protraction of a final conclusion of self-reflecting history, has the frightening potential to remain a hall of broken mirrors of hauntingly self-imposing quality.

In the meantime what has also been happening is.. the productions of language, which previously were pretty much left to develop on their own, -and that was the situation well into the 19th century… but through the power of the printing press, the evolution of language also became something under the control of these institutions, and they very quickly have replaced whatever reality may have been impinging into the lives of the citizens with a set of stultifying concepts.

Concepts replace reality. You come into the world with a blank slate, and everything is what William James called “a blooming buzzing confusion”.  Well then, one by one you isolate phenomena in this confusion, and you name it. Once a sector of reality has been named, it stays still.  It ceases to behave the way it would behave for itself.  It begins to behave syntactically, because it has been changed into a linguistic object.  When things behave syntactically they are either subjects or objects or the syntactical machinery which relates these two together.  In that case, materialism, dualism, projection of authenticity beyond the self are all reinforced.  So these are the factors which have, uh, impeded the spirit.  Into this comes the psychedelic experience.  It has a tremendous force to revivify the spirit, particularly because it is not an ideology.  It is not something someone figured out.  It is an experience and this is important to bare in mind.  It horrifies me, I’m sure you’ve heard me say it, uh, to think of someone going to birth to the grave without ever coming tangential to the psychedelic experience.  It’s like going from the birth to the grave without ever discovering sex.  It means that you died as a pre-adolescent, you know; you never really came into your birthright.  And we have been infantilized by our cultural institutions to accept the notion of ourselves as citizens consuming these regurgitated scientific models which are then hashed through by Madison Avenue, and then handed down to us by the organs of mass culture, and this is supposed to be what we anchor our lives on.  It’s no wonder that, uh, drug abuse, child abuse, self abuse is rampant in this society, because it all has been taken away from us.  You may read 1984 and think “well, thank God it isn’t that bad yet!”  Well, the only difference between us and 1984 is we dress better!

[audience laughter, applause]

So I think that, uh, little gatherings like this, and I feel like this is definitely a family gathering, uh, this, this meeting was sold out, uh, before there was any promo, uh, other than Roy’s show and a small mailing we did. So you are people who have passed through a very narrow filter. You stay up late [audience laughter] you listen to KPFK, and you tolerate Terence McKenna, so you are either thrice blessed or thrice cursed [audience laughter] I- I don’t know which it is, but anyway, it feels to me like a family gathering. It feels to me like we are figuring this out, and there aren’t that many of us, I think. But what we understand as a group, or what I imagine that, that we understand, is, that there is this twilight of reductionism. There is this end of the old model and yet we’re not ready to proclaim the twilight of reductionism to simultaneously be the funeral of reason. You see, there are a lot of people, a much larger group than we represent who are prepared to bury reason along with reductionism and I think reason, uh may have been caught in bed with reductionism, but it may have been set up [audience laughter], is the the take that I have on it, and , and as they used to say in Watergate: “linked but not tainted” [audience laughter] so.

I am a very, uh, uh, some people even, someone said I was narrow min- I was accused of being narrow minded the other night [chuckles] because, uh, I come to this very honestly through the sciences, through trying to really find out what was going on, and not just accept everything that came down the pipe. I mean, I will believe anything if there’s evidence, if it’s self consistent, if the case is well made. I mean I think that the first thing that the truth will be is, uh, a pleasure to hear. You know, and not some turgid and tormented thing where you have to go to six meetings and not talk to anybody who doesn’t believe it, and all of this sort of thing. So I think, uh, it’s important as the, what I call the archaic revival, gets rolling, it is important for us to clarify where we’re coming from. When we- when we were simply the lunatic fringe of the lunatic fringe it hardly mattered, but responsibility will devolve on us to say what we mean, and to have a position which is, uh, not only convincing to the converted, but convincing to the skeptics. That’s who I’m after, you know, because I think that a great, uh, instance of cultural blindness is what we’re confronted with on the issue of psychedelics. Psychedelics are to the science of psychology what the telescope was to astronomy in Galileo’s time. And we are in a situation of increasing global pressure on our species, increasing outbreaks of neurosis, unhappiness, psychic epidemics, and we are leaving our best tools behind because of fairly preposterous cultural prohibitions. Cultural prohibitions which deny us our best weapons for overcoming, uh, the situation that we are in. And this is really an intolerable situation because, uh, the fates, nothing less than the fate of the human species probably hangs in the balance. We cannot afford the luxury of an unconscious. We cannot afford, uh, stupidity, closed mindedness, racism, sexism, uh, consumer materialism, selfishness, an absence of globalism. These things are not necessary for us, for our moral edification so we can feel like well bred ladies and gentlemen. These things are necessary for us so that we don’t destroy ourselves. And the fact that, uh, this message is so slow coming out is a strong argument for activism on the part of anybody who thinks they have even the faintest glimmer of what is going on. You know, the future will not wait, uh. I see the most, uh, cryptofacist and intrans- intransigent of institutions slowly waking up to fairly basic facts, such as that a nuclear war is probably a bad investment

[audience laughter]

You know, so that even, uh, so that even a neanderthal a type as President Pinocchio is willing- isn’t that a cruel thing for me to say?

[Audience laughter]

Is, is waking up to the fact that, uh, [clears throat] it just don’t pay. But you know we have a lot of problems, it isn’t going to be the millennium even if we achieve a massive cutback in strategic weapons, there’s still going to be propaganda, sexism, starvation, uh, inability to correctly manage resources. These things will plague us, uh, unto, uh, the last syllable of recorded time unless we begin to undergo this kind of intellectual cohesion, the compression of our intent, the recognition of our group mindedness as a feeling, as a will, that can act in the historical context, and, uh, to my mind the psychedelics have always existed in the plants to promote precisely this. There were not language-using tool-making tribes of human beings in the absence of hallucinogenic plants. The hallucinogenic plants create the context for integrated organizational activity. This has been going on for at least 15- 20,000 years. The problem is that through a series of factors which we needn’t go into in depth here, but factors which impinged on European civilization particularly, civilizations were able to evolve outside of the noetic input from Gaia, outside of the biological radio which envelops the planet and inputs into balanced tribal societies with functioning shamanic institutions. In Europe somehow the chain was broken. The link back to the elder Gods and Goddesses and to the biological organization of human society before history was lost. And this curious kind of ungoverned intellectual development occurred. Ungoverned in the literal sense of a machine which slips from the control of its, uh, of its governor. And uh, uh, it’s, uh, in that situation materialism, which is an insupportable philosophy actually, if you have an openness, a sensitivity, any kind of cultivated feminine response to nature, it is utterly impossible.

Recall that the Cartesian, the point of view of Cartesian materialism pushed Descartes to actually claiming public debate that, m- that animals are machines. He said they feel nothing. The apparent display of pain is simply a, a, something which we project onto them. because we alone have a soul and, and Descartes you see had himself had not gone over completely to materialism, he believed there was a human soul but it came tangential at only one point to, uh, to the human body. Somewhere in the Pineal gland there was a switch and the, and the soul was running things like a telephone switch board operator from there. Well, uh, very shortly after Descartes his followers just said well we don’t need this soul concept is just a thing to stay on the right side of the church and we don’t need it and they cut it loose. An- Well once you cut that loose, then you have all kinds of permissions. You have permission to rape and exploit nature. Permission which had already been reinforced for Western man by the New Testament, but now raised to the nth degree by the assumption that nature is utterly without soul and this philosophy persisted well into the 1950’s.

The essence of, s-, of Jean Paul Sartre’s existentialism was, can be summed up in the na- in the statement “Nature is Mute” that was Sartre’s position on nature. How many people thinking themselves existentialist and hanging out in coffee houses actually ever found, worked through what the consequences of the existential point of view was. Nature is not mute, you really have to have worked yourself in a weird place to believe that, you know. In fact, nature is entirely the something else. Nature is communication, because nature is psyche. This is what we haven’t understood. We have somehow talked ourselves into the belief that into the natural world of Eden, God came and made man and from man, woman, and that men and women are of so ontologically a different level than the rest of nature that no conclusion about us can be drawn from an examination of nature. Nothing could a- I mean I, eeh, it’s impossible for me to understand how this idea persists and has such momentum in the 20th century, where hierarchy theory has very very clearly, uh, explicated the notion of the linkage of higher-order systems to subsystems that are physically more simple. So you see really what we have is a kind of fractal universe. I- In fact it’s not greatly different from the alchemical view of the 16th century where people said, uh, “as above so below” the microcosm is a reflection of the macrocosm. What this is really saying is that at the level of a planet you get a certain level of organization and spectrum of peripheral effects. The same thing, such as self reflection, self regulation, intent, goal projection, steering toward perceived goal. You get the same kind of thing on the level of society, can be a beehive or a heard of antelope or whatever, and you get it in the human individual and the human society. So really, what is to be seen is the, we are the cutting edge of becoming. We are not a thing apart, we a unique level of a multilevel organism and we have been called forth out of nature, by nature, for a purpose, and what is our cast as individuals, I think, is to discover what that purpose is and then to align ourselves with it in a way which allows the plan, whatever it is, to most smoothly unfold.

Well what it seems to be is a progressive invocation of spirit. The theme with which I began the evening. That through language, through abstraction, through magical invocation, the formulation of religion, the projection of art, the field phenomena, the phenomena which are diffuse in space and time and not easily located are forcing, or intruding their way, into three dimensional space and time. If you were an extra terrestrial in a starship in orbit around this planet, what you would see looking down is a gene swarm. The species that seem to us to be animal forms extremely stable in time are actually highly permeable membranes over millennia and tens of millennia with genes crossing over, moving around, and being basically obedient to the expression of some kind of teleological form. And it was the concern of 19th century biology to eliminate teleology, to eliminate purpose and directedness, but it’s very hard to avoid the impression of some kind of, of, uh, attractor, ahead of this planet, embedded in its history, and somehow channeling everything toward it. So that the progressive acceleration of human society, of information production, of communication, the proliferation of languages, natural and synthetic. All of these things are, uh, not something going on in the human domain and somehow sealed from the general state of nature, but are, in fact, part of the general state of nature. And the human experience, or the human animal as the carrier of this catalytic process, this speeding up and accelerating of process on the surface of the planet is not sealed from nature, but the leading edge; the leading edge of a process on this planet.

Now teleology was so antithetical to 19th century science because they were trying to pull away from the telos of, uh, medieval philosophy. They didn’t want God, these 19th century English atheists: Darwin and Lyle and, uh, and uh that crowd. However, uh, we have come through the de- the so called death of God, and the elimination of, uh, of a theological raison detre for the Universe. And now we’re looking more at a telos we would operationally define. Rather than define, for- it based on ancient revelation, which was the pre- you know, the previous the method was: the older the book the truer it must be, and the Bible is the oldest book and therefore it must be true. This is, uh, what Mercea Eliade called the nostalgia for paradise paradigm of time. We are overcoming that, it can now be seen that there is, in fact, some kind of transcendental object, and it’s best to try and describe it phenomenologically. We don’t know what it is, but we do know that it’s an enormous attractor of some sort, and we are in the field of attraction, and by we I mean all life on the planet is being drawn in to this nodal point. And it is possible to anticipate it through the psychedelic experience, because apparently the natural and the linguistic worlds are organized along the principle of fractal curves.

Fractal curves are recently discovered mathematical objects- not all of them are recently discovered, some of them are known as late as the late 19th century, but most have been discovered using computers in the last 10 or 15 years, and they are self-similar curves such that, when you take a subset of one of these mathematical objects, it is found to have a whole pattern embedded in it. The Fourier transforms that describe holograms are these kinds of things, coastlines, mountain ranges, uh, data of all sorts, when analyzed in a certain way is found to be fractal. Apparently the world is a kind of vast spiral fractal that is achieving greater and greater closure with itself, and we experience this density of closure and this compressionism, uh, as the spectrum of effects which we call human evolution, human history, emergence of high technology, the present moment, the rush towards apocalypse. The most intense moments that the Universe have ever known are the next 15 seconds, and beyond that lies still more intense moments. Novelty, as a kind of generalized paradigm of the compression of connectedness throughout the cosmos is accelerating moment by moment, in the rocks, in the trees, in the stars, and in us. And so what we call history, which is not as modern- the modern theory of history is what they call “trendlessly fluctuating” that is their model of the world. You get order at the atomic level, order at the biological level, order, order, order, suddenly you reach human beings trendlessly fluctuating.

[Audience Laughter]

It’s as though, you know we were effected by the brownian movement of random particles… and yet we, somehow out of all this ordering we’re to believe that then emerges the trendless fluctuation of human history.  Actually, this is nonsense simply that there has never been a thoroughgoing theory of history.  However, now we are ready for them because these wave-mechanical ideas that notions of closure, Sheldrake’s idea about the presence of a past, the way in which a past drives the present, all of these things lay us open for an understanding of the compression and densification of time, and this is what is experienced in the psychedelic experience. Really, you know, Whitehead said of dove grey that it haunts time like a ghost. Well, I think that the compression of the three dimensional universe at the end of time haunts time like a ghost.  It’s the cosmic giggle.  Here a messiah, there a shaman, there an ecstatic poet, and there the tiny ripple that is simply a congruent coincidence in the life of a single individual.

Robert Anton Wilson called this the cosmic giggle. It’s when something protrudes through the flor- the forward flowing momentum of rational causuistry and causes it to flow around it, and eddy and churn, and then you like you see through for a moment and you’re like What is it? and there’s a plottedness for a moment, there was, uh, the hand of the maker there but now I don’t see it anymore. That is the going behind the veil. That is the seeing into the structure of being that lies beh- behind the conventionalized languages. That’s why, uh, coincidence is so often reported as an accompanying phenomenon for the psychedelic experience, because really syntax is dissolved, and syntax is a filter for this sense of, uh, eminent connectedness. And when the syntax goes, the eminent connectedness flows in. Then it’s a question of what you do with this. If it causes you to believe that you are going to save the world, then you haven’t gotten the message right, that’s inflation, and, uh, inflation is very bad, it drives up interest rates. So if you get that kind of a take on it, you are misusing it, nevertheless, the most advanced yogic techniques that are known are the techniques of the so called AYTYT and the tantric yoga techniques, and there the prescription is, it says in Herbert Nothers Treasures of the Tibetan middle way “You should think of your house as a resplendent palace. Think of your utensils as made of beaten gold. and think of yourself as having a body made of living mercury.” What this is in western psychological terms is an invitation to inflation, but if it is a, if it is approached with the right analysis of mind, basically that it is, that there is nothing but Bodhi Mind and there is no particularization in time and space, then there is no fee- inflationary feedback into the ego.

And this is, um, this is the kind of opportunity that the psychedelic opens up. It is, uh, I’ve said many times quoting plato, time is the moving image of eternity. Time is the moving image of eternity. What the shaman does is he or she leaves the mundane plane and in Mircea Eliade’s phrase is able to trigger a rupture of planes. And a rupture of plane carries the shamanizing person into another dimension. Literally, another dimension. And in that other dimension, all of time and space is beheld, as James Joyce said, in a nutshell, and in the nutshell of time and space everything is, uh, seen to be a part and a,a,a,uh aesthetically pleasing integral, necessary part of the transcendental object. In fact, what this universe is is a lower dimensional slice of that same transcendental object. Well, I guess what impells my career and what I really can’t get over is that what I’m saying to you is true.

https://terencemckenna.wikispaces.com/The+Light+in+Nature  (RE-WORD SOME OF IT, AND CLEAN UP TEXT)

heavily edit and take the best parts below

You know, that we, we sit here and we gather here, and even though we’re talking about this extremely far out thing, still all the forms are in place. I’m here, you’re there, everybody sits on their ass, nobody sits on their head. It all, uh, it all appears fairly mundane. How can it be that what we are talking about is the nearby presence of an impossibly alien dimension. Now if that alien dimension had been reported back to us by a robot probe dropped into the methane oceans of Europa we would be all hot to go there, to organize a 20 billion dollar expedition and a 15 year plan and go out there and found out what is happening. The amazing this is, that you know, each one of us in our own living room can be this Magellan, can penetrate into these dimensions. It really seems quite freaky to me. Freaky to me that such a thing is possible, and yet that we are such monkeys or so culturally constrained, or so blind that this is not what we’re all talking about all the time, and by we all, I mean all 5 billion of us on this planet. Because we appear to be being pushed down a featureless corridor toward a furnace, and yet if you notice there are all these doors along the side of the so-called featureless corridor, and nobody seems to have cognized that you can just open these doors and walk through and short circuit the inevitability of planetary disaster. Amazing! Amazing! because we pride ourselves on, uh, our commitment that science allows us to look anywhere, inspect any possibility, our models are not dictated to us by the church, or by government, or by industry, when in fact they are dictated to us by the church, government, industry, mammalian organization and so we are no better off than all those benighted people in those previous ages where we look back upon them and say “well, they must have been so limited by their world views because they didn’t know about quantum physics and ketamine and Michael Jackson and cable TV and all of these things” but the fact of the matter is that unless we push through culture to nature we, too, are dupes; we too are somehow being sold a line.

And, uh, and yet nature is there, outside of the cities, you know you drive an hour and a half from where we’re sitting you’re in the high desert and it is demon-haunted, paleolithic space. It is, uh, it holds the same promise for us as moderns that it held for the [?] indians who were initiated in to- into their shamanic institutions before the conquest, before history. So, nature is the final arbiter of cultural forms. This is what Taoism understood, and this is what, I believe, the psychedelic plant thing is pushing us toward. It was not immediately apparent that this was so, because as I said at the beinging of this talk, in the 60’s uh th- the psychedelics came out of a laboratory, and only the most scholarly of the trippers bothered to study the natural origins and the anthro- and ethnographic context in which these things were coming from like the Eleusinian mysteries or the Mexican morning glory mysteries or the Wasson-discovered mushroom mysteries. but if we can somehow link a respect to nature, a sensitivity to Gaia. A valuing of ourselves, a, a, uh, complete placing of our own feelings and our own perceptions in the forefront of, uh, trustworthy sources and the psychedelics integrated into our lives, then there will be a tremendous cultural impact, a tremendous reorientation. Because the, the message that nature is trying to give, the steering signal on the human species comes through the accessing of this shamanic dimension outside of history. Revolutions are made by tiny percentages of the populations in which they are- in which those revolutions are wrought. The important thing is clarity and connectedness, and, uh, a, uh clear understanding of who one’s antecedents are, what the source antecedents are and what the target goal is.

‘New Age’ is a pale label for what is going on. New Age sounds too much like new Nixon, new Reagan, new re-treaded everything. What is happening is an archaic revival. A parking back to cultural models 10 to 25,000 years old because the profane fall into history is actually ending. The way the fall into history ends is with the progeny of Adam, the human race, recovering the control of the human form. The control of the human soul. The ability to turn ourselves into whatever we wish to be. This comes through the union of imagination through understanding, into nature. The invocation of the dream, this is what the Australian aboriginal society is talking about, this is what the dream time is. Finnegans Wake says “up neent prospector you warp your woof and spread your wings. sprout all your worth.” This upneent this end of time, this birth into angelhood lies ahead of us, but it is really part of the archaic return to the paradisical mode before history. The psychedelic hallucinogens are the catalyst. The minds that they touch become the catalysts within the society in general and from there the fashions, the social forms, the kinds of consciensousness, the innate decency that is, uh, that is called forth by the authenticity of the experience is what will transform us.

I mean in the same way that, uh, an affair can become a love affair if there is mutual authenticity of behavior, rather than simply a kind of flirting flirtation. In the s- in that same way our affair with Gaia can be a love affair if we can summon to ourselves the vision to make it so. And it means really being aware of the vastness of the options, of the precipice that late 20th century historical human beings stand on. We are about to leave for the stars. This is what is happening on this planet. The species prepares to depart for the stars. To do that, energy has to be marshaled. The lessons of the long march out of the trees and to this moment have to be collated, sifted, refined, concentrated, that is the alchemical goal. The historical process of the story of the prodigal son, of a wandering and a return. The return is meaningless without the wandering. The wandering has no meaning unless its fruits are given, uh, birth after the return. And I think that, uh the last thousand years has been the prodigal journey into matter, and it ends finally with modern pharmacology, modern ethnobotany discovering in the jungles of the Amazon, in the mountains of Mexico the body of Eros. Osiris, you know, fallen since the time of the flood, but awaiting the reemergence of the cognizant human connection. That is what the archaic revival holds out. It’s actually our salvation

I mean I think I’m fairly hard nosed. I don’t see any hope for us, I don’t see any hope for institutional transformation unless it is done with an awareness of the transcendental object. And the religions that we inherit from the past are so screwed up that the only way to validate and empower the transcendental object is by self experience, and by direct accessing, and people say “Well can’t it be done on the natch?” No it can’t be done on the natch, generally speaking, because if it could be, it would have been done. I mean, we- there are plenty of elder societies on this planet that have the rap down, you know, but look at the kind of societies that they erect. I mean, horrifyingly dehumanized societies seem to be the breeding place of the most sublime religions there are! So, no, I think it has to be, there has to be a humbling. We have to bow our heads and abandon the dualism that we inherit out of our, out of Christianity and science and the whole judeo-christian-islamic schtick. We have to realize that it requires a symbiotic partner: It’s a hand in hand effort. And if we’re willing to take the hand which nature offers in, in the strange form of the alien vegetation spirit from the stars that seems to infuse us on plant hallucinogens then we will go forward into a bright new world. It’s a partnership, it’s a challenge, it’s uh, the only game in the planetary village, and, uh, I appreciate your letting me share with you my notion of it this evening, thank you.

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